Your Business Problems Are Mind Problems with James and Jenni Wedmore | EP. 101

If you've ever felt like your business problems were strategy problems, this episode will flip that completely. Dr. Kasey Jo Orvidas sits down with her mentors James and Jenni Wedmore for a conversation about what business breakthroughs actually require, and why the internal work isn't separate from the business work.

In this episode, they cover:

• What a business breakthrough actually is and why it almost never looks like what you expect
• Why every problem in your business starts as a problem of the mind, and what to do with that
• How James took his business from $2M to $10M in one year
• What you're avoiding in your business, why you're avoiding it, and what that's costing you
• Why the "uncoachable client" label says more about the coach than the client
• A practical experiment for the skeptical, analytical person who wants to see if the internal work actually matters

If you've been wondering why the strategy isn't working even when you're doing everything right, this conversation is for you.

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Connect with us on Instagram: 

@coachkaseyjo 

@jameswedmore

@jenniwedmore

Transcript

0:00

every problem you're dealing with in your business starts first with a problem of the mind." Hello my friends, and welcome back to not another Mindset show. I'm your host, Dr. Casey Joe. My goal with this podcast is to take the science of mindset and behavior change and distill it down into actionable takeaways for you. Together we're gonna unpack research around motivations, self-sabotage, willpower, and so much more, and we're going to take all of that and translate it into strategies you can immediately apply to your health. Fitness, relationships, business, marketing clients, all of the things. But just to be clear, it's not all serious and sciencey around here. We're gonna have a ton of fun too, and I'm so excited to share all of this with you. All right, let's go ahead and get into the episode. So this is actually going to be my 101st episode on my podcast. Nice. So you guys are- Wow … right there. And also, I don't have guests ever, so they're all- Honored … solo episodes. Very honored. You should be very, very honored. Um, Absolutely … yeah. the only guest I usually have, is Sarah. She's my co-instructor inside the Health Mindset Coaching Certification. So I'm kind of, like, nervous, because I don't know interviewing. Watch me be horrible at this. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, but you know what? Um, you know- I am the best person- That's true… to interview, ' You can, like, give me the worst question ever, and I'm like, "Oh, I can just talk on that." Can talk about that for another 60 minutes- And then if you want me to, like, shut up- if you want me to … I'll, I'll, I'll shut it up and whatnot. And obviously Jenny is the same, is the same way. do you have a vision of, like, what we would really wanna land for your audience that would make them… be like, "I'm so glad I listened to that." So actually would love to get into just the conversation of a business breakthrough and talking about, like, what that actually means both, and then I can chime in with what that looks like from a mindset, behavior change, psych science perspective- Cool … because there is so much overlap. And I, I think such a big part, in what I share with people all of the time, of why I love working with both of you and being in the mastermind is because it's a lot of solid business strategy alongside of, like- Sure internal work. and that's a lot of what I do, too. So would love to talk about that and maybe even just, like, getting right into it with the word breakthrough. That's great. Because it's used all of the time, and what does it actually mean? Mm-hmm. What goes into it? What actually is a business breakthrough? You're right, breakthrough is used a lot. And when I speak to business owners, the first thing we say a breakthrough is, or when we know it's occurred, is when we see it in your bank account. So a breakthrough at the top level definition is evidence, that we've gone beyond the self-imposed limitations of what we've decided is possible, realistic, or logical for us. And when we go beyond that, we can experience a breakthrough. So what we're breaking through is our own self-imposed limitations. Now, at the toxic end of that, you can have a lot of people that are just, like, really addicted to insights, and they just wanna, like, read 100 self-help books go to personal, like, you know, development, rah, rah, pump me up seminars. But the, the fun thing about business itself is that it is a game where you get to keep score, and you can keep score with any number of metrics and numbers, like our leads, our sales, profit, revenue, how many hours you work in a day to what you produce, to, you know, what, what level of growth do you, do you reach, new audiences, new followers. And there are these moments in my life, and it was what really led me to like, this is what I wanna engineer others, for others, is where you would have a quantum leap in results, where it defied the past behavior of linear, logical, safe, measured growth. Like, you're moving along, you're moving along, and there's growth. You're growing at this rate, at this rate, and then boom, there's an explosion of growth. And it becomes undeniable. And we've had these in, in my career. one was when we were at 280,000 in revenue a year. By the end of the year, it was at 1.2 million. Then there was another one, this was, like, the big one people always wanna ask me about, when we went from 2 to 10 million in one year. So that was, like, obviously a breakthrough. You know? There's a, there's a breakthrough in growth, in revenue. But it doesn't have to be in just, in those terms. Like, uh, I think a breakthrough that someone could have is, like, I make the same amount of money, but I work half as much. There's a breakthrough in letting go of control. There's a breakthrough of working smarter, not harder. There's a, there's a breakthrough enjoying life and not just being all about business. But it still can be measured, you know? And that's what I, I, I care about, is that we can, we can measure it, and it doesn't just stay in your head as an idea or feeling, but it gets created out there in the world. Yeah, I think that that's important because there are different levels of the breakthrough, and they all- Mm-hmm … definitely play a role and also are very interconnected. Like, I think something you talk about a lot is how often business problems are not just business problems, but like- Mm-hmm problems internally and, like problems of the mind in a way. Mm-hmm. So if we're using that kind of logic, is it safe to say that a business breakthrough is also requiring some sort of mental breakthrough, some breakthrough of the mind first? So the first thing I say, I mean, we, we have one of our coaching containers, and I, I say this almost… We meet every week for an hour, and we do this little power hour, and it's really fun. And I'll pop in, and sometimes they're on their own, sometimes I'm in there, and the first thing I say to them is I go, every problem you're dealing with in your business starts first with a problem of the mind." Right there. So there you go. I mean, tee it up, Casey. But, um, I believe, I believe it is. I, I, also have a very, like, spiritual, esoteric distinction around that. you go into ancient texts and, and spiritual texts. like a great one is an example of the book called The Kybalion. It talks about seven hermetic principles, governing laws of the universe. Well, guess what the first principle is, is all is mind. and that's, that's something to dive into right there. But, I do see every single day, and I can give examples of this so that it becomes less theoretical and more applicable, but is a, problem of the mind. Now, here's what's cool, is that when, now when you teach business to people, 75% of what we teach, and, and Jenny, um, heads up my growth team, so this is, like something that she'll clearly see every single day. When we're in business, like 75% of what we're doing is, is marketing, right? And so if something isn't working in your business, like you're not getting the leads or the sales that you want, that's, that's occurring in the marketing department. But every single problem in your marketing performance is a problem with words. It's a copy problem. It's a messaging problem. It's a communication problem. Like, when people come to me today, they're coming to me, it's like something's not working. Somewhere in the funnel, the, the copy, the messaging, and the frame is off. Like, you didn't give me a hook. You didn't give me a compelling reason to join. You didn't address this objection. You didn't convey the value of this. You didn't say who this was for. You didn't get specific enough. It's like there's a million and one things. But they're all a problem of words. But then this is, this is what's so fascinating to me, and this is where it bridges the gap, and I'm sure you're gonna be like… I'm sure you've bridged this gap yourself, but it's like, it… To me, I see it so clearly today. Everything that is occurring for us in our world is a, is a problem of the mind. Therefore, when we're working with others, if everything in our marketing and sales is a problem of words, words is merely a tool we use to change the minds of others. With our words, we can shift the way someone sees themselves, the problem, the solution, how they see the world. We are using words to do the same thing that we're doing with ourselves. And you get… And then that makes a lot of sense because, like, even if we just went to, like, thoughts, what is a thought? It's, like, a series of words strung t- together, right? And so that's what's really cool, especially about the work that most of us do when you have a business, is you're shifting yourself to then assist shifting others. And if you can't change your own mind, how could you change others? You know? So it's like, it's two sides of that same coin, if, if you will. So yeah. Yeah, so the words that you're using to speak to other people, but also the words that you're speaking to yourself- Mm-hmm … internally. Yeah. Yep. Just, just words from your mind into the minds of other people. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, there's, there's so much there that just- There is so much it's a feedback loop. Yeah. There is so much there. But it really is like, how can you change the way someone sees something? And what that is, the, the way I bracket that is that's context or that's the cognitive lens, the frame through which they experience anything out in the world. So an, an example of this in business is problems, and I always say, like, the biggest problem with your problems is you think you shouldn't have problems. So when you deem a problem a problem, you have a problem on top of problems. That's the problem. But problems are inevitable. I don't… I've never seen a business that didn't have problems. We're in the problem removal business, and so the problem is thinking it's, it's wrong or bad Instead of going, problem means pay attention. Problem means there's something to learn here, something to, to figure out. There's an opportunity. This is m- how most people, like, strike it rich in business is because they saw a problem that other people couldn't solve. So the person that can see problems and relate to problems differently tends to have more success, and that is a changing of the mind. How I see something, the, the cognitive lens, if you will. How I see problems determines how it occurs to me. How the problem occurs to me will determine how I show up in the face of it, and that's everything. So when you can do that for yourself, then you realize you're just doing that for your clients, and that's the greatest way you can help them, you Yeah, it's interesting. I'm, I'm thinking of a related concept when we talk about stress and self-control and lots of different thing… Like, lots of different concepts in psychology, how you label them. For instance, there's work on, this is stress specifically, there's a stress is enhancing mindset or a stress is debilitating mindset, and depending on how you view stress is how, of course, you actually can cope with it. And also, it affects you at a physiological level, so we're talking, like, cortisol reactivity- Yeah … based on just how you are perceiving what stress means to you. And that's not just stress, that's, that's everything, right? Is how you're labeling it, how you perceive it, is how you experience it, and therefore what you think about it, and therefore what you feel about it, and therefore how you act on it or don't, right? So- It, it gives so much credence to, like, how powerful we are. You know, it's the person that's going to, like, what I hear in what you said it's like, "I shouldn't feel this stress. Why am I so stressed? There's something wrong with me." Mm-hmm."There's something wrong with this," da, da, da, da, da, da, da, It's like that's the greatest, you know, enemy right there. That's what's taxing you and, and taking you down. And then you're right, there's people that are like, "Oh, I love a little stress. Like, I work great under pressure. Like, this is when I really come to life"- Mm-hmm …when it's, like, the fourth, you know, quarter and it's the last play of the game. This is where… You know? But that's all the decisive context. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That's the, the context that that individual decided to, to take on. And that's the thing, like, I, I wrote about this recently' cause it, like, really grinds my gears, as they say. but there's, like, you know, you go over on Instagram, and everyone's just like,"Oh, la- la-di-da, look at my, look at my business," and that's wonderful. Like, great. Like, I mean, look, I could go and do all that type of stuff, too. I could tell you about my garden and all the, the, the fruits and plants I have in my garden thanks to my business. now. Um, that's my inside joke with Casey and, and, and Jenny. But, um, but people show the end result, and, and that's wonderful. But if that leads people to a context of it shouldn't be uncomfortable, it shouldn't be hard, then now it's going exactly what you're saying is like, "Wait, I'm stressed here. This is hard. This is uncomfortable. I shouldn't be this way. Something's wrong here. I'm doing it wrong." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I've never met someone that didn't have an extraordinary result, accomplishment, revenue, or outcome where they didn't have to go through and endure something that was challenging and uncomfortable. And so if you can reframe your rela- if that's the inevitability, and you can reframe your relationship of, like, yeah, it's still hard. You're not in denial of it. You're like, "I'm happy. Yeah, nothing's wrong here." It's like,"Wow, this is really tough, and I'm, I'm t- teaching me. I'm growing from this. It's strengthening me. This too shall pass, and because I'm gaining so much from this experience, I'll have more to give to people," it, it's an incredibly different experience. And, um- Yeah. It… That reminds me a lot of growth mindset, right? Yeah. Is the idea that setbacks, challenges, obstacles, those are inevitable, and they're actually something that I'm looking for because if I have those things, I can learn from them. That's where I can be successful and get something out of that versus fixed mindset territory would be, oh, if this is challenging, if I have setbacks, if I have obstacles, that must mean I'm not meant for it. Right. That I'm not cut out for this, and that's a lot of what you're saying here. Yeah. And I, I think today it's even hard, I don't wanna be me or anything. It's, it's hard to even sympathize why someone wouldn't have a growth mindset because I don't think I've found anything that has given more, like, aliveness and just experience of, like, an enriched quality of life than the experience of growth. And I actually think growth mindset is like, it's the way and the destination. And, you know, I know both of you guys can say that where you've had experiences in your life where you did something and it was cool that you accomplished it or you achieved it, but what you're, what you take with you and what you're most proud of is the growth that you had in, in the, the journey of going on it and that you take with you. That's, you take with you to the next race, the next project, the next game, the next fiscal year, you know? And that's, and that's endless as well, and it allows you to be with the challenges as well more, more easily. And, you know, I've gone through some tough things in my, my career, and people are like, "How are you? Like-" alive? How are you doing this?" And you're like,"Well, it's not easy. It's hard, but I'm growing," and that's wonderful, you know? So yeah. No, the good stuff's on the other side of the hard stuff. Yeah. It really is. I mean, it just like, we've had so many experiences where like when something happened, it just like forced us to like make a decision that we'd been avoiding, or like, you know, say yes to yourselves when you hadn't been, or just like… And that's the thing that people don't really understand is I don't think there's ever been a time where something good didn't come out of an unfortunate situation. But I think if you don't, you know, that's what alchemy is. It's like transmuting the bad into a lesson or good or better. But if you don't do that, then the, the thing we have to fear is that could you repeat this lesson until you do learn it? And I think that's where most people stay stuck, and then they repeat that lesson over and over again, and the lesson gets harder and more painful until you finally get it. I don't want that for anyone. I don't want that for me, you know? I think one of the sneaky, nefarious things about growth versus fixed mindset that you're pointing to, Casey, if we're talking about, like, the origin of Carol Dweck's work with how she presents it in childhood psychology, is that as adults, we don't always recognize that we're in fixed mindset when we're in it. Because it's something that you've conditioned yourself to, to how you relate to yourself gets formed with how we interact as a child with our, like, wins, opportunities, and what we experience as losses or, like, on the spectrum of trauma. It's the losing or failing for a child can- runs the gamut of that, like, big T, little t spectrum. And so you learn based on your social conditioning, your parental style, is it safe to be in a growth mindset and rewarded, or is it unsafe to be in a growth mindset? And what's so interesting how Carol Dweck's work is with kids is that there's people who innately, where it feels like when she's studying the, the children, it's like some of them are just, they experience challenge as fun and hard. She has examples of the books of, like, these kids that are learning to swim that's like, they, they do something, and they didn't do it perfectly, and it pushed them, and it kind of expanded them, and they went, "That was so hard. I wanna try that again." Versus another child is gonna go, "That was hard. I must not be good at it." And the more you condition yourself in that mindset, which is also reflected by your parents, it's reflected by your peers, it can be reflected by big, seminal moments in childhood where, a teacher is saying something to you of like… Like, my dad has this seminal moment when he was 13 where he wrote a paper, and he turned it in, and his teacher said something like If you were Ernest Hemingway, I would give you an A+, but you're not. You're Bob Finley, and I'm giving you an F. And he, in that moment, he remembers this moment of being 13 and having him t- uh, ha- having so much emotion flood him in that moment. He wanted to be a creative writer, and he, in that moment, said, "That's it. I'm done with English. I'm done with creative writing. I'm done with subjective opinions. I'm going to be a mathematician," because in math, the teacher can't tell you that you got the wrong answer. And what's so interesting- Mm …is that him and my sister are so similar with how their brain works, and she's a creative writer because he raised her with this, "Don't let anyone tell you that you aren't a good writer. Your teacher didn't like your paper? Too bad. You know, maybe you're Kurt Vonnegut." And I think that that's, uh, when, when we're working with entrepreneurs, what I see all the time is they're in a fixed mindset. They don't know that they're in a fixed mindset. When wh- it's so easy to recognize when you're the coach and you're listening to someone, and you've had all these other experiences of other people in the same circumstance with the same niche, with the same problem. Like James has gone through every kind of business problem that you could ever think of and used it as a growth experience and gotten to the other side. But when you don't have that learned experience or that repertoire of this is actually gonna work out in your favor, people go to these stages in their mind where they go, "This means that I'm not good at it. This means I'm not cut out for it. This means that I'm doing it wrong. This means I'm never gonna get it." And sometimes the, the, the breakthrough that they're having is first breaking through that pattern of thinking that their position right now is fixed, that their ability is fixed, that, that their future is fixed, and then expanding it to actually if you were just to learn something different and do something different, you would get a different result. And we see that all the time with students. In fact, I just did this really neat interview that comes out this week with, one of James' students, Amoya. She teaches manifestation, and before she joined Business by Design, s- she described her business as at six, six figures, but what I call a Flintstone car. Everything was duct-taped together, and if you wanna drive it faster, you're gonna have to just move your feet and haul ass. It's gonna take a lot more energy and effort from you to get this car down the road than if you were driving something with an automatic transmission. And she was like, "I got to a point where I was like, well, we're making six figures, but, like, what is the point? I'm a mother." Mm-hmm. "I have two kids. I'm not spending the time with them I want. I, I feel like it's just taking more and more effort and energy from me. It's draining." And she was telling herself, "You know what? Maybe it's just," women love to say this, "not aligned. It's just not feeling aligned. I'm not meant to do this. Maybe I'm not cut out for it." And then she got into Business by Design and found the processes that James gives. She used the Challenge Launch process, and she said she started, one, hiring, outsourcing, learning what she was actually… She was like, "I went through James' free training and learned that I was treating my business like a hobby. I was not running it-" Mm "… like a CEO." So she had to hire a VA. She had to put some structure in place. She had to find the rinse and repeat model that worked for her. And now, a year later, d- um, doubled the revenue. I think they did, like, 150% what they did last year. And, she just had another six-figure launch where now she's making in one launch what she was making in a year. Yeah, her last… She just did our debrief. She's just doing… She did, like, 126,000 in just this last launch from, like, Yes …a week. Yeah. And what was so interesting- But a year ago, that was her, She was in all of last year …that was her- Yes …annual revenue. Yes. And what she said was, what was so fascinating about the way that her mind rearranged it was that after- Mm she had the structure in place, now she has a team. And it's not a big team. We're talking, like, a two VAs and, and herself and her husband. And, Now that she's making the money that she wants to make and then some with the effort that she wanted to put in, now she looks back at saying to herself, "Maybe I'm not cut out for this," as ludicrous and ridiculous. Right. Hmm. Which is so neat, and you see this, and Casey you know this 'cause you, you s- studied, I'm sure, like you're so well-versed in the psychology of athletes. But there's this really neat book by athlete psychologist called How Bad Do You Want It?, where he studies- Mm-hmm … marathon runners that have like these physical breakdowns in the middle of a, a race. Like, where they, literally experience their body failing, like they have a double calf cramp in the middle of a race, and they physically cannot run. But then in practice, they're running like a five-minute mile, and suddenly they get on the field to perform, and their b- their body physically shuts down. And he talks about this phenomenon that happens with athletes where if you put an athlete on a simulator and you're telling them to run, and in their mind they're exerting their maximum emotional and physical effort, and in the simulator they see that they're gaining ground. Like, there- there's runners, maybe they're not at the front of the pack, but they see that runners are falling behind, and they're exerting maximum effort, and they're making progress. That runner will experience either sustained physical capacity or a leap in their physical prowess. Like, they'll be able to run faster, have more stamina, exert more effort. Based on the perception. Yes. Yeah. And if you take the same runner and you reverse the simulats, like you reverse the simulator so now they're exerting maximum effort, they're giving as much emotional and physical ability that they have, and all that's happening is all the runners are passing them, I just got chills, they physically start to break down. Like, the body won't do it. And what's so fascinating about that is like the breakdowns that we experience, a lot of it has to do with comparison- Hmm… perception, and our perception of our as our emotional and physical effort. So like in the case of Amoya, she's giving all that she has to give as an entrepreneur to get the bare minimum back in her business. And so mentally she's going,"Maybe I should stop running. Maybe I'm not cut out for this. Maybe I don't have what it takes." As soon as she experiences, "I'm now giving what I wanna give, and I, I'm gaining ground, I'm gaining traction, I'm succeeding, I'm seeing progress," suddenly now she's like, "I am, I am on purpose. This is the right thing. This is aligned." Mm-hmm. And it had nothing to do with- the circumstance. It had to do with your perception and your experience of the effort you put forth and the results you get back. Mm-hmm. And it had nothing to do with who she is as a person. No. Yeah, because- Yeah, and that's it- the fallacy-… and it didn't change, You know? Yeah. Right … the fallacy, the fallacy with that is, at least in the simulation or the race, everyone's running the same race. They start at the same time. Yeah. But that's never the truth- Right … in your own life. Mm. Like, even somebody who s- well, but they started their business after me, and it's like, you don't know that. You don't know what- Mm-hmm … else they've been doing- Mm-hmm … in their career, what other experience they have. Like, do you know how many people will… And it's fine, but they will say, like,"Oh, I, I've only been in business for 90 days, and blah, blah, blah happened." But then you realize they've had a sales career for 20 years, or they, Yeah they were a part of someone else's- Yeah … business as the number two. And it's like, you had all of that training underneath your belt when you started. Everyone's on their own journey anyway. You, you really… I really think ironically about the, the, the curse of comparison, which everyone does it. Nothing could be more of a distortion of reality than that. But it's such a g- Mm … uh, an insatiable need of who am I? And so I look outward to I am who I am in comparison to everyone else, the pace that everyone's going, where they stack up, and where I stack up in comparison to there. And it's like I don't think there's more of a lie- and, and a falsehood of how to identify who we are than to do it through comparison. Mm-hmm.'Cause, you know, ev- everyone really truly is, I think the most truthful thing you say is everyone i- and it's not to be like a, you know, a positive platitude or a Hallmark card, but everyone is running their own race. Like, you just, you just, you can't compare that in that regard. So, I can see that. I can see when people watch, like, what other people are doing on Instagram or look at how much, da, da, da, da, And it takes- Mm-hmm most people down. Yeah.' Cause all they see back- That's Yeah, go ahead. I, um, am, like, seeing myself in this a little bit. I… You guys, do you know this, that Jill Coleman was my first business coach- Mm-hmm … ever? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yes. I'm actually We love Jill gonna see her this weekend. Shout out to Jill. She's gonna be here in Austin this weekend. Um- Oh, that's so exciting. but I started working with her, and I actually, my first launch ever of HMCC, the certification, think we did… Actually, this, you, you guys will love this, because I had a job offer at a pharmaceutical marketing firm, and they wanted to pay me $62,000 a year. That was the starting salary, and this was me getting out of, like, a billion years of school. I'm like, "That's really what I… That's- that's what, that's what that is?" and decided to take the leap into entrepreneurship, start the certification, all of that. and my very first launch we did, I say we, it was literally just, uh, me at that time. Mm-hmm. Just me. 124- Wow… thousand dollars in that first launch. Wow. And that was, like, exactly double what I would've been paid- Crazy in a year's salary- Yeah Yeah……at this company that I said no to, 'cause I was like, Mm-hmm …"No, there's- gotta, gotta be more than that." You're definitely not getting a job now. No, right? Exactly. but bringing this back to Jill, she helped me with a lot of, like, what, what the heck is a lead magnet? What, a- Yeah … an email list? Mm. Do I, what are these things? You know, at the beginning when I was learning all of this stuff- Yeah … like, landing page was, like, a foreign concept to me. Yes. Um, and she was having, she's talking about my results, and people were coming to her saying like,"Oh, I want results like Casey Jo." And she would tell me these stories and say, "Now I have to go back to them and say,'You're not her. Sh- you don't have years and years of psychology experience.'" Yeah. And I had never thought that that was something that would set me up for business success, but obviously psychology is, is everywhere. It's everything. It's so, so much of everything that we've been talking about this entire time. Mm-hmm. So but, yeah, interesting note- Yes It was one of those things, too. Yeah. That's like, that reminds me of like, no matter where you're at, don't ever tell yourself that you're starting at zero, because no one is. It's not true. No one's starting at zero. Mm-hmm. And you have to look at, to be gentle with yourself when you're starting out and go, "What experience am I bringing to the table?" And it's okay if it's not digital, you know? Like, when I started- Yeah … now I have my own digital meditation membership. And I remember someone making a comment that something about me starting from scratch and getting results because, my proximity to James, and reading it and going, "Wow, that's… They have no idea." No idea. They have no idea that for- Mm-hmm … 15 years I was leading small meditation workshops in person. Yeah. I didn't know how to do it on the internet, uh, but I did it for 10 years in person. And then in 2020 I started doing it remotely because my company was hiring me to get on Zoom and do it. So I did have experience. And, and I went to James and was like, "I don't know- But you're… o- I'm gonna interrupt real quick, because you didn't just have a direct experience of that. She has a whole thea- uh, film and theater background. So she had a lifetime of performance, of how to use her voice, how to command- Mm stage presence. Oh yeah, that's uh, that's like be creative with, like, your resume. Like, like, yeah, that's a good point. Because, like, for example, someone asked me, I came off stage and they said, "You seem so comfortable speaking in public. What are your credential?" Or, like, "How did you learn that?" What book did you read? And yeah. And, and I told James how. And what was so neat was it struck me because in my perception, I… They had no idea. I was, I was so nervous. This happened at an event where it was the first time I had spoken in front of James's audience. So to me, I'm on stage in my head saying someone is gonna know how nervous I am. I hope they don't see that my hands are shaking behind my back. Like, I got physically sick in the bathroom. I actually met one of James's students. We had an endearing moment where she was in the bathroom while I'm getting, like, physically ill before he- has to announce me on stage. I was so nervous. And then This is scary … so to come off stage and someone say," You seem so at ease up there," and in my mind I went," Wow, I've been telling myself all day this is so scary. I've never done this before." But actually what that, the gift that that just gave me is I know how to fake a regulated nervous system on stage- because I used to be, like, a Shakespearean actor. She's a professional. You're like- Yeah … you're throwing up backstage before you go on, and then you hear your- cue line and you go on, and you regulate yourself, and the audience doesn't know that you're freaking out going, "I hope I don't forget my monologue in, in the middle of the scene." Mm-hmm. And, I went," Wow." See, now I wouldn't have thought that that background, you tell yourself, "Well, that, I just left that behind. That doesn't give me… That doesn't mean anything anymore." And then I told James, like, all the years of fitness training helps me as well because sometimes I'll come off stage and someone'll say, "You know," Mel said this to me,"I always make a list of filler words that I say when I'm talking, and you're really good at not using filler words." And I went, "Funny you should say that, Mel, because I taught ballet fitness for 15 years, and we had an instructor in the room that would write down every single filler word and then give us our list." Oh, my gosh. And they'd be like, "This is your new word. Like, you keep saying 'good' after every cue," or, "Now you're saying beautiful, you know? And I didn't connect th- that that experience actually was helping me to be a good facilitator. So it's like when you're starting out, if you're telling yourself, "It's so scary because I'm at the starting line and I don't know what I'm doing, and everyone else knows so much more than me," you have to take a minute and remind yourself that there are things that you're just bringing to the table from your own life experience or from- Totally all of your work experience that even if it doesn't directly correlate, there's a skill in there somewhere- Mm-hmm. Yeah … that you learned that's gonna serve you, and you're not starting at zero. You're starting wherever you are. It might not be the same starting line as someone else, but you're never starting at zero. Are you familiar, Casey, with the whole, hero's journey- Mm-hmm… cycle and, Joseph Campbell. So the- I know we've talked about this at the mastermind- Yeah … I feel like a couple times. So the- Yeah … the, the hero's journey, you know, like obviously George Lucas was, like, obsessed with his work and formulated this, the story structure on there. It's been used since. People use it in marketing today. But it's, it's a personal journey. I believe the reason… Like, if you th- if anyone were to think of, like, what one of their favorite movies is, 9 times out of 10 it follows the hero's journey. And I believe that the reason that w- our favorite movies that have the greatest impact on us also follow that story is because it's like it's inviting us to do our own. It's like our soul is telling us,"You're, you're meant to do that, too." And not, not to go and spend time teaching it, but it's the, the main character, the protagonist, which is you, the listener, you listening right now, you are the… And that's not to be like, have a big ego about it. but you're- Main character energy. That main character energy, girl. But you're the protagonist of your story, and you're living your life, and all of a sudden there's this call to adventure. And the call to adventure is to leave the routine. Like, if you wanna change your life, change your routines right now. Just, like, go left instead of right today. You know, like pick up the phone when you don't or call the person that you ha- Like, those things I look for in my life because it's so easy. Life can, itself can be so seductive, and we can, like, be lulled to a level of sleep through being a creature of habit, and I don't, I don't want that. You wake up one day and you're like, "How did my life get here?" It's like, well, you, you put the autopilot switch on. So the hero's journey starts where you're awoken out of that, hypnotic daze and, and they're driven by something. but in the process or in that journey, I mean, you have to face some of the darkest and hardest, you know, the dark night of the soul. You f- you face the lowest of the lows and those big battles, and it always ends with you win, you come back victorious, and you've gained something. You- you've learned something. And so when we teach business to people, what we want people to recognize, which helps with the growth mindset, is that because life… You're, you're never stuck, right? Because stuck would mean we're not moving, and everything is in constant flux and change. So how could you be stuck when, when the only constant we know is not constant? It's change. It's movement. Everything is in constant change, flux, and flow. Everything is a vector. So you're on, either one of two hero's journeys. And it's a really interesting thing. So when people are in a problem or a breakdown, they go, "I'm stuck" or, "I should give up," like, like the Amoy example, it's no, no, no. Where in your hero's journeys are you? The first one is what we call, the, the journey of the expert And the journey of the expert is like your journey when you went to school for this and started realizing all this education, and learning about this and, and, and integrating it with- within you. So now I know it. I've, I've learned it. I've mastered it. But then you had to go on another journey, which is, how do I take that knowledge, that expertise, and that mastery and be something for others as way of a mentor and a teacher? Two journeys. it's like Monopoly. You don't get to skip one. You don't get to skip go and collect your $200. Everyone has to go through both of those, the journey of your own expertise. So Jenny spent 20 years going, collecting on this journey of, like, everything from being in front of people to guiding meditation and transformation and eyes closed processes and unique experiences, to all of a sudden going,"Now I'm gonna teach that to people. Now I'm gonna be this personal brand. Now I'm gonna have the spotlight on me." And it's two different journeys. You know, and then we repeat them, and we evolve. That's when people pivot or they evolve is at, like, it's time to go on another one. People don't wanna go on those journeys. They just want the happy ending. They want the end result. But the longer you stay attached just wanting the end result without the willingness to go on that journey, the longer the end result will elude you. And so wherever you are is just somewhere on one of those journeys, and I think when people see that, it changes their mindset of where they are. You're just in a certain milestone or phase of that journey, and everyone goes through it. Everyone that's come out the other side has gone through a really challenging time, a low moment, a point where they wanted to give up or break down, and oftentimes they do. They do because of a fixed mindset. And then there are those that have the courage to say, "This is… Hold on. This is just the f- this, the end of the second act And the third act is starting any moment now, so why would I give up? Let's keep going, you know, 'cause this story will have a happy ending. So yeah. Would you say, kind of coming back to the breakthrough discussion- Mm-hmm that this would be, like, a really common pattern that you see people getting stuck in, I guess I'm using the word stuck now, that's keeping them from a breakthrough, is not seeing these different acts that need to play out, and that this is just part of that, it's one journey before the next one? Mm-hmm. Or is there some other component, other patterns that you see that are really common that are… Like, the breakthrough's right there, but you're in this situation right now. Yeah, I think, I think it could be a lot of things, but I think the first thing is, is if they don't see it, then what is it that they do see? right? Mm. So if people don't see clearly, then what they're gonna see is exactly the, the… I mean, Jenny gave the perfect example with the moyo, is like maybe I'm just not cut out for this. Maybe business is just too hard. Maybe, maybe I shouldn't be doing this. So if they don't see it clearly, then they're gonna see it through a lens of distortion. They're just gonna Mm-hmm …decide I'm not good enough. They internalize it and personalize it. They make meaning out of it. they make it wrong or bad. And, I, I think what I realized in hindsight was, is I just naturally don't do that. And I'm gonna give a very specific example. There's a lot of people that come to me where they've had an idea for something, and they got it off the ground, and it's just not… It's the same situation with the moyo. It's like it's just not working. Like, it's just like, like the… Here's a perfect example. They create a coaching program, and they're like, "Okay. Well, I made it. I'm selling it." And it's like, "It's so heavy. Like, my clients are so high maintenance, and it takes so much time, and blah, blah, blah, blah." And all they do is spend like 10 minutes describing the problems of it, and they are ready to shut this down. And, and I always find that fascinating'cause I'm like, well, when I created my coaching program, I had all the sa- I would've described it the exact same way, like no difference. I go, but this is like the decision point is that people have the experience of it and then say, "Therefore I'll stop it," or, "I'll, I'll quit it." And I said, I did something different, and it's like so embarrassingly simple, but again, like you said, like Jenny said, like when you're in a fixed mindset you don't see it. You see the world- is the way it is because that's the way it is. My program is heavy and my clients are a pain in the ass 'cause they're a pain in the ass, and that's just the way it is, James. And then they argue for that. They wanna argue for that version of reality, and I'm sitting there going, I saw it the same way, I had the same experience, and I just made one little tiny shift of saying, "Can I solve this? Can I change this? Can I make it so it isn't that way?" And, and I did. And just to give that as an example, like that program, the first year I launched it, 2016, that's how it felt. It felt heavy. It felt like everyone was just pulling on me, and I was charging way less than I am now for it, ironically. That is a nice, funny ironic, you know, fact. Tends to work that way. It tends to work that way. I know. It's like, it's just kinda true. And now this is a program that does multi-millions a year. It's a year long. Our clients are incredible. Jenny and I run it together, and it's like, it's our favorite thing. No offense to you, Casey, but it's our favorite 'cause it's not the mastermind. But we love the mastermind, don't get me wrong. But, but there's something about that room now where it's such a joy. Because I'll, I'll tell you why. Like in the mastermind, you guys are the, the brilliant ones, and so you guys… It's much more Jenny and I take a seat back and you guys are sharing with each other. You see that, right? I, I try to share a little and then I shut up and let you guys share. And in that they're not at your level yet, so it's a lot more of where Jenny and I's teaching gets to come alive, and a lot of them are in a growth mindset, so they wanna learn from us, and it's like, it's so much fun. It didn't start out that way. And so I think for a lot of people, the breakthrough exists in the moment we decide that just because it's been something that way doesn't mean it needs to stay that way, right? And, and that's the, that's the f- first thing. we see clearer. We see something more clearly, and I'm always gonna operate from possibility. Every s- every problem has a solution. There's always a way. sometimes you don't like the way, but there's always a way. And I think the moment you say,"No, it can't be any other way. No, there isn't a solution," is like you just cut off any, any breakthrough from, from occurring, you know? And, and bottom line, it's like it really is like a real breakthrough, like 'cause we've been thinking about this 'cause we're prepping all this content for this, this, this training, that we're hosting, and you have to have a paradigm shift. Like, The, the best way I can describe it is if you've been playing a game of checkers your whole life, you have to be able to take the board, throw it off the table, and, and start playing chess. it's paradigm shifting. How you see your world, the game that you play must be willing to completely change. And I have all these examples of that. Did you ever read the book… I think Jenny, you read it. Did you ever read the book Who Moved My Cheese? No. It's a funny name, though. It's a great name. Jenny, did you ever read that book? No. Is it Seth Godin who wrote it? No, it's, um, S- Spencer… Ah, forgetting it, but- I haven't read that one you can Google it. Anyways, the concept is so simple. It's, it's based- Spencer Johnson. What is it? Spencer Johnson. Spencer Johnson. Okay. So here's the concept, which I just, I just love. You put, you put, like, a mouse in a maze, and it, it looks for the cheese at the end of the maze. And you train it so it keeps coming back to the cheese, and then you remove the cheese, and it goes back to where it was, and it goes, "What the heck? The cheese isn't there." But you've moved the cheese, and the mouse will keep looking. It'll say, "Now the cheese is over here." Okay? So the funny concept of the book is proving that mice are smarter than humans 'cause we don't do that. The cheese has moved. The goal, the target has moved. The, the world has moved, and you keep going back to where the cheese was- Right 10 years ago, five years ago. And so a, a, a concept that has really allowed me for my own growth that I pass on to my other students, you've probably heard me say it a million times'cause I like to repeat myself a lot, is what got you here won't get you there. And so people wanna grow or change or whatever, but they wanna grow and change without growing and changing, and that's the fixed mindset. They wanna do it within the confines and boundaries of the familiar box they've already created of their life. Everything you want is on the other side of that box, but you're not willing to go outside of the box. You're not willing to think differently, act differently, operate differently, do something differently, but you want everything to be different. The cheese has moved, but you keep going back to the same place in the maze and then getting all upset that it's not there anymore. And I think the more we can be fluid, I think the more we can be like a chameleon to our own life, where we become more, Talk about fixed mindset or growth mindset versus fixed. Frozen, fixed, immovable, like I don't… I'm like a rock versus fluid, liquid. sh- A, a liquid forms to the shape of its container, so I look at goal-setting the same way. The goal is not just a number. It's the, it's the life I wanna have, and I will shape and mold to the shape of the life and the goal that I wanna have. And at every one of these breakthroughs, I had to change. Here's a perfect example. I tell this to people, and they don't really understand it, but it's, it's, you know, there's, there's a lot to unpack here. But when I decided I wanna go from 2 to 10 million in one year, I couldn't just say, "We're gonna just work five times harder, guys, and we'll get there." I'm like, there's no more time in the day. I can't, I, that, that's, that…" It requires a paradigm shift because I can't use, uh, linear thinking. I can't use work five times more to make five times more. So something had to, to completely shift, and the first thing that shifted was my role. So I tell our students in business that the role that you fill in the business will determine the results that you receive. So I had to look at myself and say, "What role am I really filling? What role am I avoiding? And what value do I contribute at the role of a 2 million? What role and value would I need to contribute and fill at, at a 10 million?" It's completely different. So my day had to change. There are people that come to me and they go, "Yeah, but James, like, I like playing in Canva all day. I like making my own graphics." Really? People like doing that? People like doing that stuff. And I'm like, "That's amazing. And I understand that. I get it. Make it your hobby or something." But people really don't understand that everything that you're saying yes to in your business, you're saying no to something else. And what people tend to do is only put in front of them the thing that's the most urgent, reactive, and, and pressing. Those things tend to be the most lowest value things in your business. You like playing in Canva because it's f*cking safe. Mm-hmm. Comfortable. Mm-hmm.'Cause that's what's known and familiar for you. Mm-hmm. What you don't like doing is s- pitching your thing in front of 1,000 strangers, because it's scary, right? But when you force yourself to, to change the role and the value you deliver, to say, "I need to be doing more of these high value things," everything else changes. Now, for me, at the 2 to 10 level, where that was the number one change that I tell people, was ironically, like I'm not working at all. Like, the laptop wasn't open. Like, I wasn't doing any work. What I, where I was spending my time was coaching up my team. I was putting- Mm … 80% of all of my available time into training up my key leaders, educating them, getting them support, creating the culture, the, the core values, the metrics. G- And I basically was like their advisor, and it was the highest value I could use. So basically, I was creating four, like, mini-mes in a way, and they were able to do so much more than I could've ever done on my own. And because we did that, we did more, and we did it better, and what a difference. But if I would've sat there and said like, "Yeah, but I'm just gonna like stay in Canva all day"- wouldn't have made a difference, you know? Yeah, I often say the comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing ever grows there. Yeah. So feels good, but you're not gonna get that- Yeah, you can keep one foot there. Yeah. Keep one foot there, and just put the other one right outside, you know? You can go visit sometimes. Yeah, on the weekends. On the weekends you can go visit. Um- You can go vacation there when you want. Well, yes, yes Spring break. A big part of that too is, I'm hearing a lot of psychological flexibility and also just discomfort tolerance, which those two things go hand-in-hand. Yeah. And we see that so much in the behavior change literature, and how that's required for change and goal achievement. Right. And obviously, there's carryover to what we're talking about. But with the coaches who are listening, they have clients who are stuck in all or nothing thinking, and they're scared- Mm …to try new things. They wanna stay doing what's comfortable. It's very interesting, and this is usually how it goes. Like, there's always a connection then to the coach in their business with what their clients are dealing with from a health- Mm … and fitness perspective, and sometimes I think it's harder for them to see that that is the case. Like, what they're often complaining- about that their clients are doing- Yeah are the same things that they are doing in another capacity in their business. Mm-hmm. Yeah, To me, when I hear things like that, I'm like, that's just, like, winks from the universe, that there's something more, like, divinely orchestrated at, at play. Like, you know what I mean?'Cause that can't be a coincidence. Like, you are, you are frustrated or seeing something in another that you've been unwilling- Mm-hmm … to look at or heal within yourself, which is what causes it to be frustrating, right? And it's like this projected version of your own shadow side that you're rejecting within yourself. And I've noticed, obviously this is the most s- and this just is echoing what you're saying based on my own lived experience, the more I've grown, who I attract, I see more of who I've become in the eyes of the clients I attract today, and it's unbelievable to witness. And I mean, 'cause like you're a leader, period. Like, if you're a coach, you're a leader. That's what coaching is. You're leading people. And so it's really hard to say that you could, as a predominate average, attract people that are a higher l- level of leadership capacity than you. Mm-hmm. So as you grow, you would… Any one of us would notice that that manifests in who we attract. And then what in your clients gets activated within you is'cause it's active within you. Damn. Yeah, which also fits very much into the whole," I need to sign more clients before I can invest in my business." Mm-hmm. But yet you're asking people to invest in coaching for themselves. Right. You know, it's, yeah, so much of the same conversation. And they're, and, and then pro- and then that's gonna manifest in your leads, where they're gonna sit there and say," Yeah, I'm, I need more time and I need more this before I g- I get, I hire a coach myself." They'll say the same thing, you know? Mm-hmm. I interview all of the success stories on, on a segment on the podcast, and I have to say there's definitely through lines of the, the, the people that I bring on you know, I'm always looking in the testimonials of, like, who's had an outlier result or who's had a breakthrough, and then when they have a breakthrough, we bring them on and I interview them. And the thing that they have in is, like y- you were talking about, Casey, like there's gotta be tolerance for in psychology, like a, a positive stress. Discomfort. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For, yeah, same thing. And where like- Yeah … they, they can be in that, psychological zone of proximal development where there, it's like just hard enough to where it's stretching you, but it's still not so challenging that you wanna quit. And what's really interesting about the people that have great breakthroughs quickly in the program, in, in Business by Design- is that most of them are able to approach their business from a place of what we've been talking about, like growth mindset and extraordinary receptivity to coaching. Mm-hmm. Like, where they can, they, they want, James, I don't wanna figure- this out- Willingness to receive feedback … give me the roadmap. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, I always joke with James that it's ironic that he's chosen the most difficult archetype to teach, which is entrepreneurs, because they became an entrepreneur because they wanna do it their way, and then they're like, "I wanna do it my way, but show me your way. But I might do it your way." Mm-hmm."But I might make it my way-" Right … while I'm trying to do it your way." So number one for breakthroughs is trust a coach, which, I think we see so easily in sports, but it can be really, it can be harder to see that we're not being coachable when it comes to something that's, more around the way that we're thinking or the actions that we're taking in our own personal development or business. And the other, the mistake that people make that I see them doing all the time where they, they aren't getting the results they want is they've put- High stakes and a short timeline on the results they expect- Mm-hmm … from their business, and that's like a recipe for disaster. It… And, and that, that that applies universally to anywhere you have a coach. If you have super high stakes and a very short timeline, you will approach the coaching differently, and you'll think about things differently, and you'll make bad decisions because you're just in this place of desperation and urgency versus giving yourself the space to, like, lower the stakes a little bit and lengthen the timeline. And ironically, that will speed up the development, but it's the way that you're viewing it. If you view it as, "I have to get a result right now in the next 30 days," you'll be blinded from looking at the metric that matters. James gets on coaching calls all the time with, like, "Show me the results," and they're like," I have to do something else. I have to pivot. It didn't make enough money." Mm."I need to make more money now." And he'll go, "Show me the results." And it's like it c- it's converting at 30 or 40%, but because they only had 20 people or 50 people in the funnel, they wanna abandon it versus him going,"You don't have a conversion problem. You have a traffic problem. We need to look over here. Don't panic. You're just looking at the end result, and you've got too high stakes and too short of a timeline." And, so I think the people that do really well with starting their own business, they, they, they know a way to the, the stress that can naturally happen between starting something and seeing that it's flourishing, and I've got a student that comes to mind, Tessa, that, like, was making six figures in the first like, four months of being in Business by Design, but she did not approach it from this high stakes, short timeline place. She approached it from, like, "I'm already doing something that works. I think I wanna take it online." Mm-hmm."Let me see what I can do digitally." And it wasn't, "I'm gonna put all my eggs in this one basket and then hope that it works out," you know? I think to, to echo what Jenny's saying, what is hard about what I do is she's right. I'm, I'm working with people that identify as entrepreneurs- And they, they can be very, like, easy to hire a coach, but very unwilling to be coachable, which is a funny thing when it should be reversed. You should be very… It should be very easy for you to be highly coachable because you should have had the level of discernment and pickiness with choosing the coach. But I think what makes it especially hard is the advice I give people is actually, like, spits in the face of entrepreneurship. I actually poo-poo a lot of entrepreneurship because to me, I see entrepreneurship as inventing. It's, it's a high level of innovation, a high level of… Like, true entrepreneurships are inventing markets. You know, like Uber, like that just- Mm… didn't exist. Like Airbnb, and you see that. Like, and the, the Silicon Valley entrepreneurs that start companies. And I look at what we do and what we teach and, like, Casey, like, your business model, That doesn't require nearly as much entrepreneurship as people think. That just the term- Mm …entrepreneur seems cool. It requires excellent business acumen, being a great business owner. And the… Ironically, a lot of entrepreneurs think very differently than a business owner, and I think it actually just takes more business ownership, uh, philosophies, skills, and a mi- that mindset to be successful in this. for example, the entrepreneur just wants to do it differently just because, and that's cool. You know, the renegade and the rebel that goes against the, the grain, and there's a lot of places where that can work. Like, if I told someone… Someone comes to us today that's listening to this and they're like, "Yeah, I wanna start my coaching business. I wanna take this online. I wanna reach people online." I'd be like, " The strategy's been proven. the principles are there. Just follow the plan." And they're like, "No, I'm gonna do it my way." And it's like Why? Like, if you've never done it before, why would, why would you need to do that? And it's like, it's, it's already proven. just follow the plan. And then there's certain places within the plan that you get to have all the freedom in, in your world, like creating your own frameworks and intellectual property. Like, that's where the innovation and creativity and new ideas comes from. But like, someone's like, "No, I'm gonna do it a completely different way that's never been tested or, or, you know, used before," and then be upset when it doesn't work. It reminds me too of like, okay, if you've ever cooked, and you have a recipe, and you go,"I'm gonna bake some cookies." And you read the recipe and you're like, "Hmm, baking soda. Eh, I don't really have that. I can leave that out." Or is it baking powder? I get them confused all the time. But if you leave it out, you get a different result. Like, I remember I baked cookies one time, and I, I, I decided that I knew it by heart and I didn't need to read the directions, and they came out and they turned out weird. And then I was like, "Did I skip an ingredient?" And I realized I had left out half a cup of arrowroot flour, and I went, "Oh my gosh, I didn't realize that that was the linchpin of this recipe." Yeah. That if you Right …leave out that half a cup of flour… And I see people do that all the time with- That's what, that's what they're doing … processes. They're leaving out something that they had no idea was there. They didn't know that that is the linchpin. They just think, Yeah…"Why is that in there? I'm just gonna take that out." And then you're, you watch them, like, pull the Jenga piece out, and it just all, it crumbles. I, and I can give a… Casey, if you want, I can give a specific example of this, because I have a million of them. Yeah. And I don't know if you guys just- Yeah, go for it … want to stay with, like, conceptual stuff. But I was talking to a p- client recently, and she was showing me her numbers. So I was like, "Good, you're giving me the data. That's important,' cause we wanna make data-informed decisions, and the numbers are telling us everything." But I said,"I need you to tell me what strategy you're running," because the strategy becomes the context for which the numbers start to make sense- Make sense and tell a story. There's a story tell with the numbers. If I just came to you and I said, "Casey, tell me what's wrong with my business. 36, 12, and 54." You'd be like, "I, what the fuck does that mean," right? And I go," Well, I'm doing a webinar, and attendance rate, and then 10% buyers." And you're like, "Got it." And then you could actually give me some better advice. So the strategy informs, gives context to the numbers. So I had to, I, I said, "You gave me the numbers, that's great, but I need the context, like what are we doing here?" And she explained the strategy, and it was missing the arrowroot flour. There was no deadline. Mm. And you and I know as soon as I say that, it's like- Yeah … it's the same as why does these cookies taste weird? There's no deadline. So people will do things with like,"I'm gonna create a product or group coaching program," and they're like, they think I can just figure this out all myself because I've, I've eaten a cookie before. I know what they taste like. I mean, what is it, like sugar, flour, and what- whatever you want in there, right? this is exactly what we're talking about, which I, like Casey knows, 'cause Case- Casey's been one of the most, like uncoachable clients we've ever had. I'm just kidding. For the last four years- Oh my gosh… going. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Yeah. I can say it because it's not true. but Casey's seen it firsthand, she's definitely seen it, that people will fight you on it. And I'm like, I don't… It's like I, I don't need to, like fight against you. Like, what a waste. Like, I don't need to be right. But you wanna help people, This is the thing, anyone listening, you, you know what we're talking about, that struggle of, like, "Don't do this," or," Do more of that," or, "Just do this," and, their journey, and that is what it is. people wanna go create something and they're like, "I don't wanna put a deadline." Like, I know you don't, but here's what it's gonna cost you. You know, someone's like, "I don't wanna cut out alcohol or cake whatever, but I wanna get in the best shape of my life." It's like, I get it. It's just choice, right? So it's a choice. If s- if you want 1/10th of your sales, then don't put a deadline, you know? But if you want more sales, people… It's gonna come with a deadline, and there's a way in which you structure it where it's like there's a value add, there's a discount, and there's the whole psychology of it of, like, and it expires at this point, or there's a limited number of s-… There's, these are principles. They're not even, like things that I've come up with. I just, I, I, operate from principles. There are principles in life, in business, in sales, in marketing, in human influence- Human brains… connects. In your brain, like how the brains are wired. Literally, how brains work, yeah. And, and, and this is… I mean, this is proven in the brain, but people tend to not do anything until they see it as urgent and important. Mm-hmm. And so until you make it urgent and important, they're gonna go,"This is so great. I'll get to this one day." And that's how people live their life. They live for someday one day, and as we know, someday one day doesn't come. And so then you're like, "I don't get it. I have something really cool that will help people. Is it my copy? Is it my Instagram? Is it this? Is it me? Am I a loser? Should I give up?" And it's like you just missed the arrowroot flower, because you just, like, think, "I can figure this out on my own and I don't need to listen to anybody else"- And then bam, that's what happens. And that's fine. That's how we all are. The problem is, is that that's when, that's when people quit. You were short of the breakthrough. You, you, you should have been able to say, "I did something wrong, and I can learn from this so I can improve it." But instead people go, "I knew this wouldn't work." So the breakthrough is the next thing on the other side of hold on, let me pause here, because pain and problem should mean one thing: pay attention. Pay attention. There's something for me to learn here. There's something for me to look at. What is it I'm not seeing? And when you see it, that's when the breakthrough happens. been working on updating the Health Mindset Coaching certification like from the ground up. I'm like 80 hours in, and it's been exhausting. But one thing that I just, developed was a couple exercises that coaches can use with their clients, and then I have a little interpretation guide that the coach can use to see, okay, now based on what my client says, what should I do with them? And trying to take a lot of what you're saying and with the growth versus fixed mindset stuff, and present it in a way for the client to start working towards that without just saying, "Hey, you need to have more of a growth mindset." And something I've been using to talk about it is the difference between learning mode and threat mode, and seeing it more so that way rather than growth mindset versus fixed mindset. Yes. Because the truth is, like the fixed mindset is coming from a place of fear- Yes or like a past experience or avoidance of something, and trying to help people like wrap their head around that exactly. And that feels like it rings true a lot. Again, it's what you're doing with your clients so often is the work you need to be doing with yourself. Mm-hmm. I know. Um, there is one more thing. I have to say this because- Yeah … I use these terms all the time, and my listeners already probably are like, "Kasey, are you gonna comment on this part?" I don't really use the word uncoachable. Because, and from, from this lens specifically, that so many coaches are talking about their clients, again, this way, that there's just some people that are uncoachable, and therefore they don't take- responsibility for their clients' results. And the reality is, over here in the health and fitness coaching world, those clients aren't uncoachable. You just only have the capability, the tool, the skill set to help the clients who are easy, that are already motivated. Right, right, right. Absolutely. That are ready to go. Yeah. All of those things. Yeah. So when you guys bring up, like, the, the coachability aspect, I'm curious for you guys to comment on this- Yeah knowing that my listeners are gonna be- Well, it's a little different when you're… It, it, it's kind of like James uses Lego instruction manual, but if you can imagine that someone ordered IKEA furniture and it came with all the parts- Yes … and the instructions, and they just kept it in a box. And they're like- Mm-hmm"I don't know why I don't have a built couch." I understand where Casey's coming from, because if someone's not careful, they're labeling a client un- or an individual as uncoachable as their identity, and without them even knowing it, they've put themselves into a fixed mindset- 100% where how this person occurs now is they are an uncoachable human being. Hmm. That's just who they are and who they always will be. And so ironically- we become uncoachable in, in the same regard. Like, we become that very thing, There you bring up that phenomenon of, like you become the by-product of it. Mm-hmm. Now, so that, I think that's the most important reason why I think I support you not, you know, using, using that language because what I know is any time any human occurs to me through a fixed context, that that person can't show up and be anything but that to me. so whether we use the words or not is, is, you know, like does it serve you? Now, for me, if I'm going to share my relationship with that word and how someone occurs to me. It's only always on a behavior level. Yeah. In this moment, you're showing up- Mm … choosing to be not receptive to this new idea, and it's the number one most… It's my favorite time to coach. So it's the, it's ultimately, it's the, it's the relationship. So what do you do when you have an uncoachable client? To me, it gets me the most lit up and fired up. I feel the most alive. I'm like," Thank you." Someone who gets to, um, put all of like- Like, let me in there. Yeah. Bring it on. Like, it's gonna make me like, like put my tools to the test. Yep. And, and, and I'm never approaching it from fixed, and that's, that, that, that's, I think, the ultimate thing is like if you just start saying this, "That's just how this person is," that's, that's now how you are, is you are resigned and you've given up on this client, and there's always a way in. And, the metaphor we teach, our students who wanna, you know, just be a better coach themselves is this metaphor that I've always used, it just like works for me, is like if you ever locked yourself out of your house, the first thing you do is you go to the front door and you're like, "Crap, the front door is locked," and you don't have your keys, right? Keys are in the house. So our goal is simple. We gotta get in the house. If the front door doesn't work, the next thing you do is you check the back door. Maybe you have a side door. Maybe there's a balcony. You're gonna climb up the lattice, and you're gonna get up on there, and you're gonna… Nope, that's… You're gonna check every window and every door, and heaven forbid you're gonna like Mary Poppins your way down the chimney, you know? you would find any way until you get in, and so that's how I look at, at it. and I go,"Hey, it's just this approach that I'm doing isn't working. It's not getting past the guardian of their mind," And, and I try again. and it's a fun game for me. Mm. It's a real challenge, and I, and I change my strategies. I'll change my tone. I'll change my energy with people. Like, sometimes I will play and act like I'm really upset and intense with them, because for some people, when you get to know your clients, like that really works for them. Other people, it doesn't. So you gotta, like, you gotta know your clients, so what I think matters most is what's your relationship with it? And if you become resigned as a coach the moment you label someone this is who they are and they can never be anything else, that's very problematic, you know? Mm-hmm. But I love, I love a great challenge. It's like my- Yeah … it's my favorite thing. That's a lot of exactly what I talk about, where it's, okay, well, if you're feeling like that client is that way, it's less about like, okay, just slap the label on it and like, okay, you're just uncoachable. Instead, it really should be, well, what's actually going on here? Exactly. Yeah. And like, why, why are you pushing back? Why are you inconsistent? Why- Yeah … do you have low motivation? Why aren't you sticking to the plan? Because there's always something underneath the surface, and if you're just changing the plan and missing that, you're kind of treating the symptom instead of the root cause. think, um, when I look back at my career, I, I would say probably early on, like when Jenny first met me, I would be someone with a very fixed mindset I had just decided stubbornly, like, this is the way everything is, this is the way the world works, this is, this just is what it is. And that gap that we're kinda talking about of, like, from someone to go from a fixed to an open or uncoachable to coachable, for me, I don't know if this is anyone else's experience, but for me, why that was so hard at first was because the thought underneath it is," If I'm wrong about this one thing- what else am I wrong about?" And that really scared me, because what I was doing was just trying to make sense of the world, and if I was wrong about this, the implications of, like, being able, like questioning everything and the nature of reality and what's up and what's down was, like, too heavy for me. So it felt so much safer to just, like, latch onto a lie than to be in the question of the unknown, And, and that was really hard. Now, once I got on the other end of that, it was like, I'm like, I question everything, I think, every day, you know? And it's very easy to stay there now. But it was very hard to start that journey for me. I don't know if that's, like- Yeah … my own personal experience or if that's how it is for other people. No, absolutely. Like, there's, there's meaning that you're assigning to it somewhere. Of course, yeah. And yeah, what are you protecting yourself from? The threats, right? The threat mode. yeah, and I think s- again, so often it's what these coaches are seeing in their clients, and they're trying to make sense of, and they're- Mm-hmm listening to the podcast and enrolling in HMCC so they can, like, get to the bottom of it, 'cause they wanna be really good coaches, not just coaches who are taking money and trying to change the plan and whatever. But also, it's if you're noticing you're getting ideas- Yeah … from a mentor in your business, and you're pushing back, and you're not- Mm-hmm taking it into consideration or hearing them and then going, "I'm gonna go do this other thing," then it also needs to be a," Well, why am I doing that? Where is that coming from? Why am I pushing back? Why do I feel like that's not correct even though this, this guy has 19 years of experience doing this?" Right. Questioning that and just always having that curiosity ultimately. if if Gandhi said,"Be the change you wanna see in the world", I'll go as far as… I'm not, don't compare me to Gandhi, okay? But be the customer, be the client you'd like to see in your business. I think- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm… it's, it is. I mean, it's true. Like, it's hard to ask someone to do something you're unwilling to do yourself. There's just, there's something out of harmony with that. Mm-hmm. So I try to be that every day. I try, like, anywhere I go, I try to be like… And Jenny will tell you, like, When we hire, like, a handyman or you need a subcontractor for something, I'm like, "I wanna be their best client." like, if they tell me to do something or, you know, it's like I don't, I'm not late to pay or, you know, we don't tip poorly. Like, I wanna, I always wanna be every service provider's best client. I don't think it's a coincidence that we attract really great clients in our business as well. So yeah. Okay. So with that said, I heard there's a breakthrough experience or something happening soon. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it isn't, it is an experience. So much of the growth that I've had in, in business, you know, started with me. Sometimes it's you're missing a piece of the ingredient of the strategy. sometimes it's just the way you're managing yourself and, you know, the legitimate real fear, fears and concerns we have of taking ourselves to that, to that next level So we've been running this virtual event for a couple years now, and, uh, it just keeps evolving and getting bigger and better. And it really is an experience. It's, it's a three-part, like, takes a course over seven days. and it's designed to show any business owner, any entrepreneur, and we work primarily with those that are some form of, of coaches and, you know, wanna take that business, scale it online, have a digital business, and really how to experience during this, this training a breakthrough in the business. we always, because a business is not just a job, and I think that's, like, the first breakthrough for people is they realize, like, this isn't a job. It's a, it's in its own entity with multiple roles and functions. Like, you're not just a trainer. You're also, like, you have to be the marketer and the sales team and the, the face and the product and the fulfillment side and the customer support and the invoice, you know, payment collector and, you know, all that. And then- Canva designer. And you gotta be your own brand designer. It's, it's a lot of roles, right? And so it's really hard for people to have a 360, 365-degree awareness of their business at all times, and it's usually the thing that you didn't know that you didn't know, the invisible thing, that's holding you back the most. And so it's really designed to shine a light or a mirror on things that we don't always see, the things that I saw the hard way, that, when you see them can catapult and shift, your, your trajectory and your growth in business. So we call it appropriately the Business Breakthrough Experience. you know- Yeah that's how creative my names are. I just tell it like it is, you know? we're we're kicking off, uh, June 11th. And, it's live. It's, it's very interactive. and you know, it's gonna be a little, like, confronting and challenging. but that's- Bring that growth mindset. Exactly. Yeah, and I think people have to be willing to, to take that on. Um, it's, it's just based on the work that we've taught our clients for years. And, it's both the, like, the left brain, the strategy, but it's, it's mixed with, like, all the internal stuff that's going on what does this mean? You need both. You need both. Yeah, you really do. And, and you know, you and I have talked about this, but there's always people just, like, seem to be, like, on one side of it. And- it's always both, you know? So that's, uh, that's what we got coming up, and it's, it's really exciting. It's a, it's a fun time of year, and you know, it's, it's totally free. f- my favorite compliment people say is they say it's more valuable than, like, the several thousand dollar, you know, business course that they bought. So, um- And I can attest to that from- Well, thank you … previous years. I think I've been to three or four. Yeah. But this number- And it's gonna be- … it's a little different, right? This is gonna be… Well, this, yeah. W- what I've done is I've just added a lot this year, and, and it's just, like, it's so much more now. So I'm very, I'm very excited about it. We've been working really hard behind the scenes to, like, prep it. I'm still working on a few of the content pieces. But yeah, it's gonna be really special this year. Beautiful. And- the- Yeah… link will be in the show notes Please go. Like, please go. There's a reason I have James and Jenny here as, like, my only ever guests- because they are- I know. Thank you for that … someone that you want to l- Thank you. Yeah. Of course. Definitely someone you want to learn from, hear from. Come with an open mind- Mm …to learn from, hear from. And let's see. Maybe I wanna leave you guys with one more thing. I think just, like, thinking about maybe someone who might be listening to this and is a little bit more on the analytical side, a little bit more on, like, the skeptical side of, like, okay, a breakthrough, and like- Yeah okay, please, J- James, tell me to just, like, manifest my dreams type of situation. Mm-hmm. What is maybe, like, a little experiment that they could test on themselves? Oh, that's so- Something that they could do, yeah- Yeah to, like, kind of showcase that- Wow. Okay. What a- … this matters… what a great, um… Okay. I have, I have one, but I feel like Jenny has something. Did you have something? You're not th- you're not thinking of anything. Okay. Okay, cool. So here's, here's the first thing. Like, uh, first of all, I'll s- I, I have something kinda simple and cool, but, I wanna say that's the world I come from, and Jenny will attest to that. Very analytical. I was very logical, very left brain. My whole stick was I decided that the person that works the hardest will be the one that makes it on top That was a very dangerous mindset to work from. I found myself… I got addicted to my sister's Adderall. I was taking 20 milligrams a day, and I was working 12 to 14 hours a day, seven days a week, and I dropped down to, like, 145 pounds. I looked like Christian Bale in Thinner. Uh, well, The Machinist. The Machinist, was very thin in that movie. Uh, it was, it was gross. It was like I was a skeleton, and I had nothing to show for it. And so I come from that world, and I, I have a lot of, like, appreciation and respect of the analytical side. So I'm gonna give you a couple of options, but the option here is to look for a pattern in your life. So you can look for a pattern three ways, okay? The first pattern is a pattern of problems. So I want you to think about the last upset in your business or your career and just write it down. But when you write it down, I want you to say, "This is a pattern of…" And then answer it. And what you're gonna look for is, in seven days, does it show up differently and it's the same pattern?'Cause I don't… just don't believe in coincidences, right? So the example of this is the, um, a client that was, like, really mad at and she's like, "What have you done for me and my business?" And da, da, da, da. da. I was like, "Well, you don't show up on the calls." I'm like,"So show up on the next call." And I go, "So, okay, you're here. Like, I'm-- let me help you. How can I help you?" She's like,"Well, it's just that no- none of my clients show up for my calls." Hmm. Interesting. Patterns, right? So just like you were saying before, there's patterns. So you can see a pattern of a problem, because the pattern will arise in different ways to get your attention. So it doesn't have to just be in the context of business. It could be I get upset by the same type of thing. It's a pattern, right? The other thing is a pattern of something to receive. So has the same book, piece of advice- Hmm … or person been suggested to you more than once recent times? Look for three. Obviously, I… Today, I… We always joke and say, "Why do we need three? I'll do it at two." You know? So I hear something twice, I don't need the third one. but I have so many examples of, of that in my life where someone said something three… Like, someone recommended a book three times, and then that book changed my life, you know? and then the third one is a similar offshoot of that, which is just to look for any bizarre synchronicities in a pattern of three. So it… that could be anything. Just look to nature, look to life and say, "Am I noticing anything happening in, in threes?" And, and Jenny and I could go really weird and down the rabbit hole of like, whoa, we saw, like, a, uh, tarantula spider three times in one week, in our… You know, once in our house, once outside, once down the street, like all in one week, and you're like, "There's something there." And it's, it's normal to go,"That's just a coincidence." I get that. I understand that. But now you're looking for it, and just choose to say, "But… And what if it isn't? What if it isn't?" You know? And that's just the first place I look is, like, look for patterns. Look for patterns, and when you, when you look for patterns, you'll see those patterns. And w- when you see those patterns, you, you, you just… You kind of open yourself up to, like, what if this is telling me something? What if this is teaching me something? Hmm. What if there's something… h- what if it's just… What if it's not just coincidence? And when I lived my life that when I chose to… That was the bit, first paradigm shift, that things aren't just mere lifeless, soulless, black and white, that there might be something else occurring, I, I, I let that lead and guide my life, you know? And I know you've had experiences of that where you're like, um- Oh, I told you about, you're saying, like, the pattern of threes? Yeah. And I know I told you about the- I know … the three three three Like, your room, your room number at Tahoe- Oh my gosh… and stuff like that. Yeah, like multiple times in a row. Right? When you- Yeah … when you get, like, crazy chills. So even Jenny, when she was talking earlier, and you know what it means, but your listeners are don't, when she's just like- Mm-hmm … "Oh my gosh, I'm getting chills." Right? When she gets chills, like, any time she hears l- like, anything that's just, like, true, like, powerful truth, she always gets chills, right? So she's, she recognizes that and notices that. So I think that's just the first thing I always recommend to people, and I think it's a fun game to play, and it, and it does seem silly, but it's like, you don't have to do anything with it. Like, okay, so three people recommended a fucking book. Like, read it, don't read it. Like, who cares? But at least buy it, and then if it's just sitting there on the shelf calling your name one day, like, open it up maybe. I don't know. So yeah, that, that would be my answer for that. Such a good answer Oh, good Oh my gosh. Yeah, no, that was amazing. And we've had- Jenny had a ban- better answer, but she didn't wanna share it, so I guarantee you any s- single person that just decides within themselves to say, "I'm gonna just look for a pattern." Yeah. You're not forcing a pattern, you're just gonna, like, "I'm gonna m- mark it," like if, if I get the advice three times or if I just see something- Mm-hmm like, like Casey with the numbers. but it's very easy for… And, and hopefully you don't do this, Casey. You probably did a little bit at first, but people go, "What does it mean? What does it mean?" And- Yeah… " What does it mean?" And, and we're, like, looking for all the, this meaningness. and you can go down those rabbit holes. What does 333 mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you'll have every different answer that you could possibly look for. And what I tell people is, like, well, the first thing it should mean is, like, there's something of significance and importance here. I, I also take it as, like, there's something beyond coincidence here. You know, maybe someone is, like, starting a business and they're, like, doubting, "Oh, what is it? Well, maybe this is the wrong idea," and they're like, "I don't…" And they lack the faith, and then they see this pattern like that. Don't you think that's something telling you, like, you're on the right path? Like, "Hey, it's gonna be a challenge, it's gonna be hard, but don't give up." Like, have faith. Like, so you can kind of see it as like I don't need to necessarily have this direct interpretation of it, but it's like I'm seeing something, so there's significance here. And, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that in as this is, this does- this isn't just a coincidence, you know? And, and you know, I used to be very, like if I would've heard someone say all this, I just would've, I would've rolled my eyes so hard and just like, "This person's rubbish." And then I experienced it in my life, and I experience it all the time. It's unbelievable. I could tell you a million stories. And I think that's, I think Jenny, it was you, I did ask you, that was in Tahoe when I, like, really started seeing this pattern playing out a lot. And it's only ever business stuff, only ever business stuff that I, this number shows up in random places. but I think Jenny had said the same thing of like it… Just, like, pay attention. And I think it means that you're probably just, like, on the right path. You're doing the right things. Like, keep going. And like, i- if anything, ultimately, if you're sitting with that belief that I'm seeing these synchronicities and coincidences, right? And that means something good, that I'm on the right path, that I can feel that for myself, that in it of itself is going to help you- Mm-hmm … and then play out in your reality, right? Yeah. So yeah, good stuff. Okay. I think we can wrap there. Okay. I appreciate you guys so much. Thank you. This was such a fun conversation, and I'm so excited that I get to, like, share you all with more of my people too. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. It's gonna be great. Thank you for having us, Casey. Yeah, absolutely. And everyone, if you're still listen- listening at this point please, please, please do try to make it to the Business Breakthrough experience because it'll be worth your time, w- More than worth your time. Promise you. Well, thank you for saying that. I appreciate that. Yes, of course. Of course. Thanks for having us. I can always… can say that with my full chest with anything that you guys do, always. Aw. So all right. Thank you all so much, and I'll see you next time. And that's a wrap for today's episode of Not another Mindset show. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you get notified of the next one. Because if you're anything like me, if the episodes aren't popping up for you automatically, you'll keep forgetting to come back to the show even if you really, really enjoyed it. So go ahead and hit that subscribe button and make it super easy for you and of course. If you wanna see more episodes just like this one, I'd love for you to let me know by leaving a review. I know, I know it's super annoying to do, but the few seconds that it takes means the world to me and also ensures that I can keep providing free education and value to you. And just to sweeten the deal, I am going to be picking a random reviewer every single month to receive a free workshop or product from me. If you're looking for more free resources or just wanna connect, hang out, chat a little bit, come find me on Instagram. I'm Coach Casey, Joe over there. That is where I hang out the most in the land of social media. Alright, my friends, that is all I have for you this time. I so appreciate you being here and love to see you prioritizing your growth. I'll see you next time.